Curse

jkyarr · Apr 13, 2007, 11:12 PM // 23:12

Quote:

Originally Posted by mafia cyborg

lhavin to level another char through the same storyline again is nothing but a nuisance.

You can't tell me that just because you're accomplished at playing a Warrior that you could pick up a level 20 monk and be of help to a party in the same way a "no lifer" (as you say) leveled-the-hard-way monk player would. If that were the case then there would be no good reason to justify having seperate professions or skill that were profession specific.

Caith-Avar · Apr 14, 2007, 01:00 PM // 13:00

Quote:

Originally Posted by Loviatar

for all of you still hoping to keep the level 20 system while making *cosmetic* level number increases i refer you to the following if you havent seen the article yet.

I don't think anyone here really thinks that it will just be level 20 and instead of skill points after that also increasing the level number...

Quote:

there will be a strong sidekick system which will allow a friend 10 (or more) levels lower than you to join your group and get enough benifits
...
that says even 10 levels will make a big difference not a little difference.

Which essentially takes an arbitrary barrier out in group finding. I fail to see your point here, Loviatar, as I have failed to see in the other thread, with the same argument.
Following the logic of a flattened curve, the greatest difference between levels is in the low level area. So while a level 120 player might defeat a monster 20 levels higher with some effort, a level 20 player with the same effort might only stand a chance against a monster 5 levels higher. So the sidekicking system might be most useful in the low level area.
Also following the flattened power curve, the lower levels are easier to reach than the higher ones. While that technically would allow for a quicker "keep up" possibility, it is just the other way around: If one person has twice as much time to play as the other, in the high levels, it might be 5 levels more gained on 20 levels (so while one gets from 100 to 120, the other from 100 to 125 in the same time) while in the low levels, it might easily be 10 levels on 20 (Person A rises from 10 to 30, while Person B rises from 10 to 40 in the same time). Keeping in mind the aforementioned discrepancy in power, while the 5 levels difference in high levels don't matter as much, the 10 levels difference in low level do matter - heavily.
Furthermore, I see it as another point of flexibility. Taking out arbitrary limits to be able to play with whom you want to play with, when you want to play (the famous example of the 30 minutes before dinner).

And I think, this is where the sidekick system comes into play: While I don't know how it will be with content graduation by locality, this is likely to take out the factor "level" as a factor to graduate with whom you can play with.
This fits very well into the whole flexibility system (including the concept of translocality (as in: Free Travel/Teleportation) which has been mentioned as something that will most likely be kept).
So, if you're level 30 and your friend, who had holidays, is level 40, and you want to play together, he doesn't have to replay what he has already done (to pull you to his state), but he can just push you up via sidekick-system so you can both play at where he is at.

Again... this is most likely to be of higher relevance in the lower level area (and could be used as a "keeping up"- or powerleveling-mechanism - which doesn't matter much if the gameplay is less level-centric).

Other possibility is to make testing characters more viable. So your favorite group of pals has played to level 60 - regardless if it has taken a week, a month, or a quarter of a year - and you want to try something new. An Asura-Mesmer instead of a Charr-Warrior (yeah, I know, the classes are most likely subject to change with GW2, but I just wanted to pick some race-class combinations) for example. So... you start your Asura Mesmer, and while you're at it (possibly leveling through random events (or another starting zone), so it's more replayable), your friends pop up online and say: "Hey, we want to go beat that level 60+ dungeon!" And you can say: "Hey, I want to try out how my Asura Mesmer will play at level 60!" and they say: "Ah, okay, we'll sidekick you up from level 20 to level 60!" instead of: "Sure. In a week/month/quarter of a year, when you finally have reached level 60, we'll come with our level 80 characters to assist your level 60 character in that level 60 dungeon."

Quote:

and if the higher levels flatten out some that does not mean all those 75?+ levels you had to get through do not count.

Doesn't matter. Simple: If the average level is reached by "just playing" (without focus on leveling - pacing is the key), like missions, quests, exploring etc. and enables you to access virtually all content in the game, what does it matter? Why imagine that you'll be level 20 when you're all set and done, and then have to do something else to get up to a level? As you have correctly pointed out, it will be different. It may take twice as long as completing the prophecies campaign to reach level 75, but if that is filled with content, paced correctly and everything - who will worry after all? And, hey, sure... higher levels more powerful? So Level 75 might be 500% as powerful as level 1, or 10.000%. Does it matter if you reach it by "just playing the game"? And what's with higher levels? So level 150 will be 10% stronger than level 75, or maybe 50%. Does it matter much, if level 75 already enables you to access most of the content and most of that power surplus of level 150 over level 75 is gained in levels 75 to 85 anyhow?

So... as far as I see it, the sidekick system doesn't make the game level-centric at all. It might be, but that's speculation. As far as I can recall, the sidekick system was mentioned with the abscence of henchmen (apart from that hero-type thing that you can have). To me, that context sounds like: "Yeah, soloing will be a bit more difficult... but in exchange for that, we'll enable you to ignore levels up to a point, if you want to play with a friend."

The only thing that has been stated more fact-like was that there will be a higher level (That is to change the lack of public recognition...
Quote: "Guild Wars is lacking public recognition of character development, because the level does not increase any more. That's what we're going to change in Guild Wars 2 by rising the level cap a lot.") and there will be a flattened power curve (Quote: "This increases freedom in character development without making Max-Lvl-Characters too strong.").

We have tidbits of information, numbers, concepts, examples. Most of what is discussed is speculating, drawing conclusions. There hasn't been any mentioning of pacing, of what to do to get up to max- or average-level. That is something that generally has been underestimated within reports, articles... people like comparable stats, numbers, that's why they are used.

Well, enough of the off-topic. Anyone with new and fresh ideas to the general "leveling, reasons, causes, pros and cons" topic?

Loviatar · Apr 14, 2007, 03:16 PM // 15:16

Quote:

Originally Posted by Caith-Avar

Well, enough of the off-topic. Anyone with new and fresh ideas to the general "leveling, reasons, causes, pros and cons" topic?

possibly been mentioned i didnt read it all.

how about many levelers are stuck in a dead end real life position?

NOT SAYING LOSER BUT NO REAL PROSPECTS FOR ADVANCEMENT

the game progression might give them a sense of progress that real life does not allow.

as for levels if i can do at least most of my leveling through content without too much simply extra grind killing evenly spaced on the way i dont care if it takes me a year (or two yeaes) to reach the cap as i will be playing at whatever level i am at having fun playing the content that is level appropriate for me at that time.

and by then they would have raised the cap maybe more than once.........so what?

just more content to play when i reach that level.

jkyarr · Apr 16, 2007, 03:59 PM // 15:59

It's interesting to me that my other thread, which is a much more subjective and uproductive topic seems to be surviving at the top of the topic list for much longer than this one. Any ideas how to make revive this subject and add a little more controversy?

zwei2stein · Apr 16, 2007, 04:31 PM // 16:31

I know guy who knows guy who can help you with removal of insured dry structures ... for price of course ...

Take Betrayal At Krondor game - now, that is wonderfull levelless game. You can just ignore all the number stuff and go adventure. Big Number freaks still have challenge of getting skills to 100%, not that there is point to that.

Advancement is natural - you advance in storyline, thus if you enjoy story and writing you have awesome replay value. And story with writing is excelent.

Obviously, if you would play to just get l33t stuff and pwn mobs, etc, you get gravely disappointed.

Mordakai · Apr 16, 2007, 05:31 PM // 17:31

Quote:

Originally Posted by jkyarr

It's interesting to me that my other thread, which is a much more subjective and uproductive topic seems to be surviving at the top of the topic list for much longer than this one. Any ideas how to make revive this subject and add a little more controversy?

I'm surprised that other thread it still around... (of course, I'm guilty too, I just posted in it!)

I think "item decay", struck a cord in people and so there's a lot of emotional posts, which always help thread counts.

This thread, for whatever reason, has been, for the most part, more intellectual and perhaps "boring" to more people. A lot of theories and history on RPGs and the concept of leveling, for example.

Also, much of the emotional response was handled when we first learned about this in the Guild War Reborn! thread, so people have either dealt with the ideas of higher levels in Guild Wars 2, and apprently don't have much more to say.

That said, I'm glad you made thise thread, and I think some great discussions have resulted from it!